The Great Soda Debate

Like chumming the water, Mom sends the following email to her daughters: An article on Reuters today about the strong positive link between sodas and type 2 diabetes. Even one a day, which is lower than national average can markedly increase your risks.

Of course, it has the expected result...(edited to decrease size, a teeny bit)

Livvy: :-D. Good thing I don't drink soft drinks. Never could stand the burning sensation of the bubbles!! Although...I don't know if all the candy I constantly eat helps any :(. THE CRAVINGS!!!

Celeste: Yeah, but note in particular the biggest point in the whole article, which wasn't really emphasized: The data reviewed by Brownell's team also show that higher intake of sugary sodas goes hand in hand with lower intake of milk, calcium and other essential nutrients, fruit and fiber, and higher intake of carbohydrates.

Don't worry about drinking the occasional soda. Make sure you're eating right, otherwise.

I wouldn't care about this stuff so much, except whenever anyone trumpets results like these, it goes hand in hand with a rush to ban something, or introduce more laws and regulations. Let's make selling soft drinks in school illegal! [...] At what point does it stop being the government's business what you do, and become your own, even if the choices you're making are considered dumb at the moment? People have a right to be unhealthy. We have a right to feed our kids corn puffs and trans fats if we want.

There's a certain segment of society that seems to think that if we just forced everyone to live a certain way, no one would die, and everyone would be slim and beautiful and we'd enter into a golden era of happy shiny people. Ain't gonna happen. Live on wheat bran and soy milk if you want to, you're still gonna die. [...]

Livvy: Yeah...YOU, the parents, have a right to feed your kids whatever you want, but that right is taken out of your hands when schools put soda machines in their lobbies, or let Chik-Filet's set up shop in their cafeterias. And I'm not saying that it's entirely the schools' fault, because if parents really didn't want their children to eat that crap, then just don't give them any money to buy it, or instill in them a strong sense of what qualifies as "good food" or "bad food" according to you.

It seems to me however, that a lot of stupid arguments would be put to rest if schools would just do away with these controversial things since it's completely unnecessary and extremely indulgent of them to have these types of food items available to kids anyways. Like you said Celeste, a school's only purpose is to educate, and if some parents are too damned lazy to pack a lunch for their children and would rather send them to school with some money to purchase a lunch, then that is fine, but the schools should only be providing what is necessary for a well balanced meal. [...]

I think that parents NEED to assert themselves and regain control of their kids lives and if that means limiting what the schools are allowed to "provide" to the kids, then so be it. If you want your kid to eat or drink whatever they want, then that's fine...give it to them yourself! It's not necessary for the schools to provide it to them. Not to mention that the simple act of providing easy access to these kinds of foods is in fact taking away the parents control over their kids.

Celeste: The right of a parent to direct their child's diet is NOT taken out of their hands by the availability of soft drinks or junk food in schools. To suggest that it is, is to also suggest that the rest of society needs to bow to your dietary whims, in order for you to control your offspring, and that sort of attitude leads to Britain considering banning pork in public schools, since the availability of it offends muslims. Do what vegetarian or mormon parents do. Tell your children they're not supposed to eat/drink that stuff. Because, if you're going to dictate that schools should only provide what is 'necessary' in terms of available food, there are going to be a whole lot of different competing factions telling you what they consider necessary and also what's harmful.

And there's no reason to pass a law about it. School boards are mostly run by elected citizens in the community, and they're the ones who decide whether or not Pepsi gets to put a machine in the school. If they don't want to offer that crap, they're free to take it out. There doesn't need to be an order from the government telling them that they have to. But the revenues the sodas in those machines provide end up paying for a lot of stuff around the school, and that's one of the reasons they're there. Because most people don't object to their kid having an occasional can of soda and not selling it in the schools isn't going to prevent them bringing it in on their own. It's just going to prevent the school from taking a slice of the soda revenue pie. So if a community finds the sale of sodas in the school so offensive, there's an easy remedy for it already in place, and it's being done around the country already. [...]

Mom: Ahhh...and then there's also the FACT that the schools get enormous kickbacks from the companies who manage to 'place' drink machines in their schools. Dr. Pepper worked very very hard to obtain the contract for each and every district in the area. You see, they figured that a customer gained in youth was a customer for life. So there's a huge money factor involved. Even the marketing people that I was working with thought that it was extremely unethical, and that they were contributing to the obesity problem. Not enough to quit though. Heh. [...]

The point made in the article about how drinking soda replaces the consumption of other, healthier foods was very important and one to remember in meal planning for our children. Cudos to Celeste for doing such an awesome job with Roy in this area. Believe it or not, I knew mothers who were putting soda in their children's baby bottles at his age.

Livvy: It actually is taken out of their hands. There are some parents who do not allow such foods in their homes because they do not want their kids to eat it. Thus, they make it UNAVAILABLE to their children. When schools make it available to them, the control of those parents is taken away. Which is why I say, as far as schools systems are concerned, that a minimalist approach is the best approach. [...] And, furthermore in allowing these types of products to be available at schools are they not bowing to your dietary whims? And "whims" being the key word, because foods such as the ones on topic are completely unnecessary; there is no cultural, or religious reason for them being there, and they are unhealthy in that they have little or no nutritional value.

Celeste: You can rewrite your statement to say:

There are some parents who are vegetarians and do not allow meat and meat products in their homes because they do not want their kids to eat it. When schools make meat and meat products available to them, the control of those parents is taken away.

There are some parents who are orthodox jews, and do not allow their children to consume anything but kosher food. When schools make non-kosher options available to them, the control of those parents is taken away. [...]

Sodas are not served with lunch. You can't get a soda with a meal card. You have to have cash. If you don't want your kids drinking sodas, don't give them cash, but meal cards, or the equivalent, or pack their lunches and send them in with them. By allowing people who want to, and have the money, to purchase a soda, you aren't infringing on anyone's right. You can not demand that the rest of the world change just to suit how you want your child to be raised. If we do that, we'll end up with a society so restrictive that everything that isn't mandatory is prohibited. Again, if a particular school doesn't want a soda vendor contract, they're free to not have one. I just don't want a state or national level law banning it. [...]

Alicia: Don't know what school was like for you girls, but since I was getting up at 6AM and then commuting or in class until about 4PM most days (then usually doing homework or working until midnight -- not to mention getting shitty sleep every single night in a super uncomfortable back brace), I was certainly glad for the cherry coke in the morning and at lunch. I could barely stay awake in Calculus even with that and a caffeine pill. Can we at least give these kids a coffee station if we are taking out the soda machines? Coffee has very good for you anti-oxidants (and the helpful stay awake juice I know I needed in high school). Also the article does not indicate it causes diabetes.

By the way, I also heard a worm can crawl up in your brain and eat out the inside of your head if you eat sushi.

Orianna: But Celeste, letting the general public choose for themselves is what led to the 60% obesity rate in the country. We gave them McDonald's and despite how unhealthy it is, they 'et it all up. They clamor for their superpiggies dipped in chocolate and deep fried. Really they are just too stupid to be making any kind of intelligent informed decision for themselves. I say we make it easier on them to make the smart choice, by eliminating the poor choices.

Who's with me?

Livvy: Hmmm...you could be being sarcastic, but I am totally with you. Seems to me that the 60% of the population that became obese, got that way because they were too stupid to make decisions for themselves, and were just following the lead of corporate powerhouses like McDonalds anyways. So instead, let them follow the lead of smarter people, so that they can then make smarter decisions. [...]

Orianna: Sarcastic. I want my superpiggy an I want it NOW!!!

Celeste: Wow. Who'da thunk Livvy was a mini-authoritarian? The problem with the idea that smarter people should be in control and make our decisions for us, in order to protect the too-stupid general public is that if you get the people you want in power this go around, I can guarantee it ain't gonna last. It's why the constitution was written the way it was, and why our country is structured the way is. There are plenty of people like you who want to gut federalism out of the notion that there are people out there in the country who could benevolently rule in the best interests of the people, but history has shown that to be patently false. It's why we don't have a King. [...]

Yes, freedom is bad for some people. When you are free to make stupid choices, some people inevitably will jump at the chance. It's a fact of life, and I don't want my right to have a chocolate-covered super-piggy stuffed with a little-piggy taken away just because some asshole is going to decide that's all they want to eat day in and day out. Who said we had to save everyone? Or that we had to protect people from themselves? If people make bad enough choices, they die, hopefully before they've bred, or failing that, before they've had a chance to train their offspring to do the same. I'd rather let them, than prohibit the consumption of chocolate cake in a vain attempt to keep them slim.

Orianna: Fatness could actually work out to be a new breed of eugenics. Studies have shown that obese couples have difficulty getting pregnant. And before Lissa chimes in, it's not because they are mistaking fat rolls for certain other body parts.

Livvy: You are wrong about that Celeste. My high school's cafeteria did consist of fast food restaraunts...and if you wanted, your meal card could definitely buy you a soda to go with your lunch, despite the wishes of your parents. [...]

No...you are totally right. In fact, I think that we should do away with any kind of organized education entirely and just let kids--and parents even--do what they want to do. If you want your kid to have an education then you and only you should be in charge of that. The whole problem with public education anyways, is that people cannot come to a general decision of how it should be implemented and what should be taught. So do away with the whole institution and let people decide for themselves.

IN FACT, I am a personal advocate for the overthrow of society in general. Large societies such as ours never work and in the long run eventually fall apart. People need to get organized into small communities...like tribes...and live together that way. It's the only thing that has ever EVER worked for long periods of time and still survives today. It wasn't until people started crowding in, and the groups got larger and larger that things started to fall apart. TRIBES...that is the answer!! We need to think small people!!!

Celeste: Dude, I finally agree with you. ;) The country was just fine before the introduction of public schools, and federal interference in public schools didn't come about until the 70s thanks to that bastard Nixon. Noteworthy that when centralized control became the norm rather than the exception, that's when things really started to decline.

But I don't think we need to go so far as tribalism. The current state system works just fine if you let it. [...]

Orianna: While I agree that people should be given the freedom to make their own decisions about their diet; I also agree that kids don't fall into that category. Celeste's argument swings both ways, just eliminate the crap altogether and whatever it is you want your kid to eat, they can bring with them. If the fatties are free to have vending machines full of cheetos, then why aren't the health conscious free to have broccoli vendors? Pack your god damn lunch and stop expecting the government to raise your kids for you.

Livvy: YES!!...Children do not fall into that category...and I do believe I mentioned at least twice, that I am not for the eradication of "junk" foods entirely...just in our school systems.

Although, ideally we would all resort to a tribal type of life and educate our children on our own terms.

Alicia: If soda's so dangerous it can't be in schools where younglings can get their hands on it, then it should be age restricted like porn, ciggies, and sudafed.

Livvy: Uhmm...you are a soda junkie and I believe that anything you say will advocate the consumption of soda. You are like the people on the street that go..."just one sip junior. You'll like it. It feels good...yeah...feel those bubbles...mmm" And all the while your eyes are glazing over and your voice is getting more and more high pitched and breathy, your tongue lolling out of your mouth...etc...

Celeste: But of course, soda isn't so dangerous. Soda on it's own is fine. Soda in conjunction with a poor diet high in carbs and low in fruits/vegetables, is bad for you. You can achieve the exact same bad effect as drinking a soda a day by consuming anything else containing an equivalent amount of high fructose corn syrup, which is in practically everything you haven't made yourself. And as Lissa pointed out, there are times when a soda is a damn boon.

There's lots of stuff available - in school and out - that's unhealthy. It's available because it's enjoyable or useful, and the average person has no trouble managing their life in conjunction with its use. That there are people out there who will abuse it is no excuse to make it illegal. People abuse sugar, sex, cigarettes, alcohol, coffee, human kindness, animals, cough syrup....

... in fact it's people like you who are the reason I have to give my drivers license and sign in a damn register just to get some fucking cold medicine. Because someone out there might buy a whole shitload of it and use it in their meth lab, I get to be treated like a common criminal, and the cops get to waste their time paying a visit to a family of 5 out in Arizona that was unlucky enough to all come down with the flu at the same time. Buying more than 3 packs of cold medicine in a month is suspicous, don't you know. We need to send the cops out, just for their own good. Guess they should feel grateful it wasn't a SWAT team, at least.

Alicia: Ha ha, or BATF. They would have just fire bombed their house and called it a day.

Livvy: Uhm...there are many alternative cold medicines to choose from if you are feeling ill. You do not have to purchase products containing sudephedrine you know. But, you are right. Let's do away with school nurses because kids should know how to prescribe THEIR medicine to THEMSELVES. In fact, there should be no reason for doctors or the like at all, screw just talking about schools. And all drugs currently only available by prescription should instead be sold over the counter. I mean, who has the right to stop us from using whatever we want whenever we want. And we are all certainly intelligent to know how to read a label so that we know what to take, for whatever ailments we are currently having, and how much to take, and all the side effects that can occur to go along with it. In fact, we do not need to have food or medicine regulated at all. Let anyone who wants to, manufacture, and make it, and sell it to whoever they want to. Let them do the testing on it, and create their own labels for it. People know better. I agree with you...let people do whatever the hell they want. Screw stupid laws and regulations. Whatever makes us happy should be the norm.

Celeste: Sudephedrine remains an over-the-counter drug available without a prescription. Its possible use in domestic meth production is the only reason such restrictions are now in place. So the fact that some people might abuse it, much like some children might get fat from drinking soda, suddenly justifies the ridiculous restrictions now in place? Let's keep in mind that, placing sudephedrine behind the counter has had NO impact on the availability or price of meth, much like banning the sale of soda in the schools will have NO impact on the availability of soda to children. In fact, it's quite likely that if you do ban it, a tidy little black-market of children with more lenient parents will spring up, selling soda to other students on the sly. We had kids in high school that would run to McD's for you and get you lunch for a price, too.

Being reluctant to ban or mandate things because of a sudden perceived harm, does not equate me with wishing for total anarchy or a society with no rules. Nice straw-man there. We banned silicon implants because of a sudden perceived harm, cost an industry billions of dollars, only to turn around recently and like Emily Litella say, "Never mind." We were encouraged to use margarine because it was supposed to be healthier for you than real butter... until the latest trans fats freak-out. I'm just arguing for a little more trust in common sense. The average life-span of Americans has increased steadily for decades - we're not doing that bad, no need to panic.

Livvy: Either way you put it, I am still standing by my argument, that if parents want their kids to eat whatever they want, then the parents should be providing it to them; not the schools.

It is because of people like you that there are so many idiotic law suits about how "my kid is obese and it's the schools' faults," "I am obese and it is McDonald's fault," "I went through a windshield because I don't meet the size restrictions on my seatbelt, so it's the car manufacturers fault for not taking into consideration the vast number of obese people that are the product of our nation." You advocate having people take responsibility for their own actions, but you forget that most people don't take responsibility for their own actions. And it is usually those same irresponsible people--the ones complaining on how it's not their fault that they are sick, it's someone else's--that are usually the reason why there are groups like MADD, TRUTH, etc.. out there. Would activist groups like MADD and TRUTH have considered these things problems if the people you support hadn't somehow managed to turn it into a problem? Doubtful. But it is the ignorance and poor judgment of these "obese" individuals that brought it to the attention of others...and guess what? Now these idiotic issues are dominating public opinion, such as should vending machines full of cheetos and cokes be allowed in schools?

Orianna: tee hee

Livvy: OMG...I want Nick to have that shirt :-D!!! Sooooo funny.

Celeste: I agree, if parents want their kids to eat whatever they want, they should be providing it. I just disagree that it's such a travesty if a school has a soda machine as well. I think it's up to the schools, and if the parents have such a problem with it, they can let the school know. Most folks don't, though, because soda isn't that bad for you. Nor is Chick-filet. It's when eaten in excess and to the exclusion of other things that it becomes a problem.

How does taking away even more of a person's choices do anything to enhance freedom or personal responsibility? It's because of people like you - the ones who insist we need to DO something, that society has a responsibility to take care of you and protect you from your own stupidity - that we get these lawsuits, not me. Once you freak out and ban, or try to ban something, you've just provided the evidence needed for a speculative lawyer to start filing. And the existence of societal leeches like MADD (alcohol) and TRUTH (tobacco) has absolutely no bearing on how much of a problem there really is with obesity.

And I think the reason these sorts of issues make headlines these days is because as a society we have it so damn good we can worry about crap like this, rather than spending our time actually worrying about how to put food on a table and a roof over our heads. No where else on earth are the rich people starving and the poor people too fat. I count myself lucky to live in such a country.

Orianna: You both need to stop with the name calling. Let's be realistic, it's not because of people like Livvy that schools are banning sodas. Livvy is not litigious, she just wants the best for people. It is not because of people like Celeste that there are so many idiotic lawsuits, she is not lobbying on capitol hill to protect the fatties. Be more constructive in how you couch your arguments, instead of lobbing personal attacks.

Livvy: Nick would die if he ate Chick Filet. Just one tiny little bite...and he'd keel over...dead. Just like that. Like that stupid tylenol story you hear in Elementary school. Fluke allergic reactions. But if you feel like you NEED a soda to stay awake during the school day, or even a cup of coffee...then bring one in from home. Anywho, I can't believe you'd advocate the selling of POISONOUS foods to children Celeste. Seems so unlike you.

Celeste: Well Nick knows Chick-filet is poisonous to him, right? You aren't suggesting he's too dumb to avoid eating food he knows he's allergic to are you? I'm not advocating selling it to Nick, but if people who won't die from it want to eat it, I don't see the problem there. And I'm sure it's an ingredient in their food, not the franchise itself that's so dangerous to him, so the same thing could happen whether Chick-filet was on campus or not.

Livvy: Well, obviously Nick is a genius and would not make such a stupid mistake as to kill himself....well, maybe I cannot say that...there was that one time when he ate the banana walnut muffin, and the other time where he ate the sandwich with pesto sauce, and the other time where he ate the green beans almondine, and these are just the times I am privy to....sooo, I guess, if a genius like Nick can make those mistakes.....and yeah, this thread has probably run its course I think ;).

Sooooo anywho...It's been fun Celeste, Anna, Lissa, Mom :). I do love to argue!! But now I am off to class...where I will probably make a totally worthwhile dinner out of vending machine products!



Orianna: Just for fun . . . .
it's Chick-Fil-A